Aiwa Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 3 minutes ago, RPG-support said: Entrance fee is only helpful for developers who do not want competition. I'll say it again... Example to refute this..... Apple... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adriano Faria Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 And there is competition, of course. I can, for example, buy a RUSSIAN translation for Downloads app for $10 instead of yours that costs $30. This is competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPG-support Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 5 minutes ago, Aiwa said: Appl This is the cancerous growth on the surface of the planet Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aiwa Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Just now, RPG-support said: This is cancerous growth on the surface of the planet Earth. And that's your opinion. I would say the same about Android. It doesn't change the fact in my argument. Apple charges $99 / yr for access to development tools and to maintain listings in their store. IPS charges the cost of a license and renewals for whatever products you wish to develop for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan H. Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 11 minutes ago, RPG-support said: I think that there is misunderstading of the real situation. Entrance fee is only helpful for developers who do not want competition. Most customers will continue to renew the licence since they want security updates and personal support. But if you see the list of products on the Marketplace, you will see that this list is not very big. We are lucking good products more and more. The time of the homogeneous sites is over. I think that the company understand this. That is why they made Forum independent from the Core in the last release. This is the time to open the doors to the developers from the ourside and make the new policy: licences + opensorce (some kind of the mix). I will hardly accept that the pirates are stopped from copying the software at present. So, better think about ned mods, aaplications for your own sites. Stop care about pirates. I think you're trying to present a couple different things at once here. You want more developers, without an entrance fee. Okay. Couldn't IPS do that by opening some sort of developer program where people can apply and get special developer access of some kind, separate from normal licenses? It's entirely IPS's decision, but I'm not opposed to that idea at all. It wouldn't hurt licenseholders, and it give the possibility of a lower bar to entry for prospective devs, which are always in short supply. I don't see why opening the marketplace up to all is necessary for that goal. An open marketplace is a much harder sell, for reasons already discussed at length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPG-support Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 12 minutes ago, Ryan H. said: I don't see why opening the marketplace up to all is necessary for that goal. This is the good question, man. Because when you have 500 products in the store then nobody is interested in purchasing new licences and create the site on the basis of this engine. Less people are interested in the engine = less developers are interested to join the mission. Finally you need to open something (if not all) to see if something will change. Otherwise we will continue to use the Forum because the number of mods for the Store is very limited. They are still considering the Forum as the locomotive of their business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheersnGears Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 IPS does have a chicken/egg problem with regards to add-ons. Developers don't want to build add-ons for such a small audience and the audience is relatively small because there are so few add-ons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan H. Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 20 minutes ago, RPG-support said: This is the good question, man. Because when you have 500 products in the store then nobody is interested in purchasing new licences and create the site on the basis of this engine. Less people are interested in the engine = less developers are interested to join the mission. Finally you need to open something (if not all) to see if something will change. Otherwise we will continue to use the Forum because the number of mods for the Store is very limited. They are still considering the Forum as the locomotive of their business. So, your proposal is to uncouple IP.Board from the core and basically make the core an open-source product, in the interest of growing the IPS ecosystem. I'm not necessarily opposed, but that would be a pretty massive business change on the part of IPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitori Bocchi Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 25 minutes ago, Ryan H. said: An open marketplace is a much harder sell, for reasons already discussed at length. Out of unreasonable fears. Try looking at it from this angle: If you are already registered here as a nulled board user, aren't you more likely to end up buying it than when you spend all your life on a nulled board providing nulled software? Also wouldn't it be wrong if they atleast contribute something to the community, which might encourages others to buy the product, because it gained more value than it has now? I always give myself a facepalm when I see people here writing "you need to be a customer to receive support". One thing is ticket support where only one individual profits from support and nobody else (the most stupidest kind of support), but once they write something on the forum, answering the question, regardless of whether that person is a customer or not, adds value to the community, because others might have the same problem, use the search and find this answer and don't have to waste time (which is payed by our all money) using tickets. But no, someone could receive support without paying! ... Sometimes you have to look at things that are negative and consider whether it is in a greater interest to still allow them, because the benefits are greater than the disadvantages. A pirate is this or that... The whole thing isn't as easy as some here think. The world is quite devided to this day, and while some here earn thousand of euro each month, others earn that much in a year. To simply say they just don't want to pay is pure ignorance. I'm well aware that I live in a rich country and 300 € aren't as much to me as they are in country like bulgaria where this is nearly a months pay (also I still cry each time I look at the exchange rate for the Euro, considering it was 75 Cent a Dollar when I first bouth it...). I can relate to a certain agree why they take the software nulled, though I think each one who uses it illegally for financial reasons should aim to buy it, out of respect towards the developers and mostly themself! Of course there are some communist under them, who want everything to be free, who do not respect property rights, but that's a minority and even them will most likely not be able to afford it to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aiwa Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 26 minutes ago, Hitori Bocchi said: A pirate is this or that... The whole thing isn't as easy as some here think. The world is quite devided to this day, and while some here earn thousand of euro each month, others earn that much in a year. To simply say they just don't want to pay is pure ignorance. I'm well aware that I live in a rich country and 300 € aren't as much to me as they are in country like bulgaria where this is nearly a months pay (also I still cry each time I look at the exchange rate for the Euro, considering it was 75 Cent a Dollar when I first bouth it...). I can relate to a certain agree why they take the software nulled, though I think each one who uses it illegally for financial reasons should aim to buy it, out of respect towards the developers and mostly themself! Of course there are some communist under them, who want everything to be free, who do not respect property rights, but that's a minority and even them will most likely not be able to afford it to begin with. What you describe here is known as entitlement mentality, 'the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.'. If you can't afford something, you find a less expensive alternative that suits your needs. I can't afford a brand new BMW 7 series, but I make due with a used Honda. In the case of Community software. If you want a forum, but can't afford IPS, go with phpBB. If you want a Blog type site, but can't afford IPS, go with WordPress. I understand the want is to grow the IPS brand. But you're not going to do that by devaluing the product itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Woods Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 @RPG-support Right now, IPS is developing good quality, third-party developers are doing the same, AND we see IPS staff talking with developers and non-developers alike... this will all disappear in favour of this fabled idea that: massively increased competition = everything better overall ... which is simply not true. There are IPS alternatives that give you some of this, yet here you are looking for IPS to do it. Why? Because IPS is good, surely that is the main reason? Well, it is good because of the way it works, and your suggestion would make things worse overall. Of course, we could talk about a compromise -- perhaps there is something to your ideas that can be extracted and used for the actual improvement of IPS -- but I doubt you'd be interested in such an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevengeFNF Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 On 07/06/2016 at 4:58 PM, RPG-support said: Yes, I am suggesting that developers without the licence may upload files to the Marketplace to make competition, to increase the number of products and to make it as popular as Google Play Market. And the users without licence may purchase to increase the commodity turnover. How would a Developer without a license would make an app, if he does not have access to the IPS Suite? Stop comparing to the Google Play Store... You are talking of a system with Millions of users. And yes, Developers needs to pay to be able to put app on the Play Store. Same thing on the App Store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Woods Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 By the way: Apple just made changes to their app ecosystem, particularly with regard to developers -- how can they do this? Because it is not fully open. IPS can make improvements in the same style; we have already seen this lately, with the presence of Lindy and Matt and Rikki -- all engaging within the bounds of a safe and secure environment. I have used other forum software, I use Wordpress, I have used Android and the Google Play Store. It's all a car wreck when compared to IPS. Also, it is not on IPS to balance out economic inequality -- sure, they can help in their own way, and all of us in the community too but if you throw that in as reasoning to change things then you are losing focus which will in turn damage everything for everybody. Thinking about Apple and the idea of fair pricing as could perhaps relate to IPS... Apple just announced a subscription payment model for apps, which includes giving developers the ability to charge prices based on location. I think that could be good for third-party developers, assuming that it can work well and IPS provides good support for it. But I am not a developer so perhaps it would not be viable for reasons I am unaware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Management Lindy Posted June 8, 2016 Management Share Posted June 8, 2016 I don't care how thieves wish to rationalize piracy, it's no different than stealing electricity or cable, as I see it. You may see it as a victimless crime as your neighbor is already paying for it, who cares, right? The reality is, there are real costs to deliver IPS4 and they're not small. Infrastructure alone is in the tens of thousands a month and of course, recurring income is what keeps a company afloat. So, one is not just stealing from IPS, they are stealing from other clients -- normal, honest human beings -- that are promoting growth of the company and product. I've had enough of this "courts decide who a pirate is" and stealing for a greater good (contributing to the marketplace) garbage. This isn't an evening hobby project - it puts food on the table for well over a dozen people. I can't afford a Bentley Continental -- boo-hoo, right? Should I just take one? That's different because there's a "tangible" loss? (These are rhetorical questions.) If you can't afford the software, I don't know what to tell you other than to check out a free software option. Taking something you've not paid for because you can't afford it is still theft. Back to the topic at hand. There is no reasonable scenario in which someone could develop on the IPS platform without direct access to the software (and sharing the software/license, even with someone claiming to be a developer, is against the license agreement) so, in essence, the only people this would serve are people who have pirated/nulled the software. Call me crazy, but I'm not going to trust thieves to submit resources to the Marketplace to be installed on paying clients' sites. Now, with that blood boiling rant out of the way, we actually have considered and are still considering a developer license program. The issue is defining developer for the purpose of the program. We're of course not going to give source code and dev licenses away to anyone who can do echo 'hello world'; and it's not feasible to interview applicants. So, it requires some thought. There's also the argument that you need to spend money to make money. As mentioned, if you want to sell software in the Apple app store, you pay $99/yr. So, perhaps a discounted developer-only license may be a potential solution to whatever problem we're trying to solve here. We can discuss this for a little while longer, but please drop the debating the merits of piracy - I can't tolerate it, even a little. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPG-support Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 25 minutes ago, Lindy said: we actually have considered and are still considering a developer license program I will just keep this because this is the message of the evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Man Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 I could never be as elequent as Lindy and some our great contributors here in these forums, and I appreciate the cost of Marketplace apps really adds up when you have a few paid-apps for multiple sites, each with multiple IPS licenses, throw in the cost of some themes and add your hosting and domain fees and suddenly hosting IPS sites, especially as a hobby, isn't for the financially challenged anymore, especially when you consider its so hard to make any kind of worthwhile revenue through advertising etc. Often then you've dug a hole for yourself, as you now have a blossoming or close-knit community and you don't want to close it down when the costs escalate and you can't attract any donations or make that revenue to offset some of the rising costs. The justification for the cost of the Marketplace apps has been discussed before and the point is well made. Many of us started off with free forum software like Ikonboard and then eventually began paying for newer, more feature-laden, refined and more secure products. Yes, it's a swift kick in the family jewels when the updates cause so many issues that you don't want the hassle of bothering to upgrade except to stay secure (and then risk breaking half your add-ons and themes in the process). Lindy has been great in recognising and acknowledging some of this especially of late. However, to be honest, it's absolutely still worthwhile keeping the dross out of the Marketplace (of the kind you see and shudder at on Google Playstore). Open source can be great but free is certainly not always better. On top of all that mentioned above, surely we don't want booby-trapped malware, spyware and adware creeping into the Market Place apps and plug-ins etc. Similarly we don't want untested, insecure official apps. We have to keep our respective members secure and respect their privacy as well as our sites and servers. I don't know if there is any screening process before apps are available to download or buy in the IPS Marketplace, I'm sure there is something in place. At the end of the day though, if you buying or downloading free or paid apps from well regarded developers like Michael John, Adriano, Marcher etc, you can pretty much rest well assured. Perhaps I should more cautious as everyone's computer is so at risk these days that even the most respected developer could be caught out. I've never had a virus or worm warning about IPS products or addons that I recall. There is certainly no justification though in opening up the Marketplace for those without licences to develop or download apps, simply ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MADMAN32395 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 4 hours ago, RPG-support said: Entrance fee is only helpful for developers who do not want competition FFS what entrance fee are you talking about? If you want to go back on that android comparison you oh so love... ANDROID MARKETPLACE HAS A 25$ ENTRANCE FEE. There just smashed another one of your "points". 4 hours ago, Aiwa said: I'll say it again... Example to refute this..... Apple... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalvinK Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 The Marketplace should not be opened up to developers who do not have a licence for IPS. They may have obtained the code through various means, but to me a developer who does not have a licence is a leech. They are gaining income or reputation without paying a single penny to the actual developers of the code. Why should IPS assist them in making income or gaining reputation when they don't give anything back to IPS? The second point is about the quality of developers. We have a number of developers who provide decent modifications to the software, and with an open market where people haven't made the investment into the software (and lets be honest, it is a very small amount that you are being asked to invest) we will end up with contributions being made to the market place that are low quality, rarely updated, and potentially harmful to customers. You keep bleating on about Google Play, but the example is not analogous. Android is used on tablets, mobile phones, etc which a vast amount of people use. IPS products are not used by such a large amount of people. Indeed forum software is not used by a large number of people on the internet (who tend to use Facebook and Twitter for a lot of things), and also use free software much more. PHPBB and other free software is free for a reason. It's open source. It means however that if the faeces hits the proverbial fan, you are at the mercy of technical support provided by the community. With IPS, you have a support team who are able to help and certainly won't just leave you out by yourself if everything goes wrong. I'm starting to deviate from the initial point. IPS' customer base is different to the open source forum software as they offer enterprise solutions. They don't require massive modifications to the forum software in most cases. The main reason that people don't develop for IPS (and I count myself as one person in this group) is because the documentation is very sparse. This is improving and I've started to learn more about the CSS framework and I have a few ideas for some applications that may make it onto the marketplace one day. Who knows. There is absolutely no reason for the Marketplace to be open to people without a licence. To use the software you must have a licence, whether you are a developer or the person running the community. Like any software there will be those who pirate the software, but IPS shouldn't be encouraging people to pirate the software by allowing them to sell their wares (either for reputation or for monetary income) on the official IPS marketplace. It's an utterly ludicrous suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aiwa Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 -Does anyone have any ideas on how a potential 'developers license' could be accomplished? I had some random thoughts in the car on the way home... Provide the core at no cost, but any apps the developer wants to integrate with they would need to pay full price for that app then a reduced renewal fee per 6 mo / year. Developers license has no access to official technical support, because they won't be running a live community. Dev site must meet all the requirements of the -TESTINSTALL key provided to those with licenses. There still must be an entrance fee, you have to spend money to make money. But I'm sure with some thought behind it, IPS can make it less of a hurdle than paying for a full license. -Any ideas on how to interview / evaluate potential developers? I'm at a loss on this one. You can certainly require that the developer submit at least X # of files to the Marketplace per renewal period, or update X # of files, or they lose their license... This, however, has the potential to be time consuming for IPS to manage... But just throwing it out there. I know we have no impact on policy, but seeing if we can throw out some ideas @Lindy may not have considered that may help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheersnGears Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Can't the base cloud hosting platform be used for development? $30 bucks a month and you don't have any other hosting costs. Surely $30 isn't too high to get your foot in the development door..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Management Lindy Posted June 9, 2016 Management Share Posted June 9, 2016 16 minutes ago, CheersnGears said: Can't the base cloud hosting platform be used for development? $30 bucks a month and you don't have any other hosting costs. Surely $30 isn't too high to get your foot in the development door..... I'm always pushing our CiC service, but as it's cloud-based, there's no FTP support and the files are encoded. Of course, with some examples, improved developer docs and a rework of dev mode, this could be less of an issue. Our cheapest plan is actually $20/mo. so it is a minimal investment to get going. I'll look into this a bit more though, thanks for the suggestion, Drew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Management Lindy Posted June 9, 2016 Management Share Posted June 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Aiwa said: -Any ideas on how to interview / evaluate potential developers? I'm at a loss on this one. You can certainly require that the developer submit at least X # of files to the Marketplace per renewal period, or update X # of files, or they lose their license... This, however, has the potential to be time consuming for IPS to manage... But just throwing it out there. I know we have no impact on policy, but seeing if we can throw out some ideas @Lindy may not have considered that may help. That's the biggest issue. I've considered minimum volume requirements, but that could easily lead to substandard apps -- quantity over quality. Obviously, the goal is to get the more experienced developers in to offer integration bridges, apps, etc. It's going to be a difficult feat selecting them without insulting others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Wizard Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 10 minutes ago, Lindy said: I'm always pushing our CiC service, but as it's cloud-based, there's no FTP support and the files are encoded. Of course, with some examples, improved developer docs and a rework of dev mode, this could be less of an issue. Our cheapest plan is actually $20/mo. so it is a minimal investment to get going. I'll look into this a bit more though, thanks for the suggestion, Drew. The suggestion sounds great and it really does seem like a clever idea. However it is ultimately just a suggested solution to a non issue that is trying to grow into a real issue. There is zero point to offering any means of access to developing for IPS if users don't own the license. Like whats the post? Most people who are programmers for forums have dedicated years of their lives and don't do much else. Its not going to suddenly increase the presence of developers by much. For example competing devs from other softwares or even none forum environments (wordpress, etc) are not just going to suddenly come in droves to develop for this forum market. All this does is create the potential for bad devs to place something on the market place that can include malicious coding. Also the topic has steered a little bit from the initial suggestion/feedback so I'll quote it here: On 6/7/2016 at 6:02 AM, RPG-support said: May be it is the time to make your store free without need to have the active license in order to purchase something. You are getting the tax from the every purchase there and from the every money transfer. For example, you do not pay the entrance fee when you are going to the supermarket. So, make your shop like the supermarket. I can tell you from a business stand point why this is bad and I can also tell you from the standpoint of a customer/dev but I think the thread has kicked the dead rotting horse enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Man Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 I'd like to see an IPS Academy to get beginners (with some basic HTML, CSS, PHP knowledge) coding Marketplace plug-ins, and of curse improved documentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalvinK Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 11 hours ago, The Old Man said: I'd like to see an IPS Academy to get beginners (with some basic HTML, CSS, PHP knowledge) coding Marketplace plug-ins, and of curse improved documentation. Improved documentation is something that should be done first. I had the joy of trying to do my own responsive IP.Page template last night and eventually succeeded but it took a bit of time to get there! I do like the idea of more tutorials though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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